Curious on what your thoughts are.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jyrki Pekola on January 28, 2012 at 1:36pm

Hello Dave! There is much similarity in our stories.

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Permalink Reply by Frank Compton on January 28, 2012 at 10:31pm

Dave, if your grandmother did not become a U.S. citizen before 1947, she became a Canadian citizen in 1947.  Her son, born out of wedlock, would likewise have become a Canadian citizen in 1947.  However, if his responsible parent became a U.S. citizen while he was a minor, he may not have remained a Canadian. 

In addition, at the time you were born, there was a requirement that the birth be registered with Canadian authorities.  Since it was not, even if your father was still a Canadian citizen at the time, you did not acquire Canadian citizenship.  You could have made a delayed registration of birth abroad, but that possibility expired in 2004.  Unfortunately, you are not helped by C-37, because you are the second generation born abroad. 

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Permalink Reply by Dave Harnish on January 28, 2012 at 10:37pm

Ouch, thank you frank. I was going to send in the proof of citizenship application to be sure, but I am worried that the extension to retain citizenship expired in 2004 also.  Thanks.

 

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Permalink Reply by Antoine Gerald Beaudoin on February 24, 2012 at 5:47pm

Dave, sorry to say, but I doubt that you or your father qualify for Canadian citizenship at this time. Your father was born in 1944, and would have become a British Subject - IF your grandmother had registered his birth. Instead, he was a US-born US citizen at a time when dual citizenship was not recognized by either Britain or the USA. Your grandmother would have become Canadian Jan 1, 1947 - but that would not benefit your father since grandmother was British at his birth and Canadian citizenship is not retroactive to dates before Jan 1, 1947. 

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Permalink Reply by Frank Compton on February 24, 2012 at 10:08pm

Gerry, I quote from the Canadian Citizenship Act (1946):

"A person born before the commencement of this Act, is a natural born Canadian citizen...if he was born outside of Canada...and his father, or in the case of a person born out of wedlock, his mother...was born in Canada..."

This certainly would suggest that Dave's father DID become a Canadian citizen in 1947.

However, I do see that the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act (1914) (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/4-5/17/enacted) made no provision for the children of British mothers, only fathers. Moreover, the CIC interactive questionnaire indicates that the determining factor for having British citizenship before 1947 (for children born outside the Commonwealth) is birth in wedlock to a British subject father. Again, nothing about the mother. This would suggest that Dave's father was never a British subject, and, my understanding is that only British subjects became Canadian citizens in 1947.

On the other hand, I see that Robert Addington has written (http://www.lostcanadians.org/group/peoplebornbefore1947/forum/topics/british-nationality-law-before) that, "Children born abroad; i.e., outside the British Empire, were British if born in wedlock to a British father or, if out of wedlock, to a British mother." I thought the same, but now I can't find support for that view in British law. Perhaps Robert will explain further..

By the way, the requirement to register a birth originated with the Canadian Citizenship Act and does not apply to anyone born before 1947. Also, dual citizenship DID exist at the time we're talking about. What was prohibited was taking a second citizenship (i.e, naturalizing). As stated at http://www.theshipslist.com/Forms/CanCitBirth.htm : "A person...is considered an alien only if he gained another citizenship by an act on his part, and does not include classes such as those who were born dual nationals."

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Permalink Reply by Frank Compton on February 25, 2012 at 2:31pm

Correction: for "British citizenship", substitute "British subject status" or "British nationality". 

I found this from a debate in the British Parliament in 1944, just three years before the passage of the Canadian Citizenship Act 

(http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1944/jul/27/illegitimate...):

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake):

"It is perfectly clear that, under the law of British nationality, which is contained in the Act of 1914, children born in these circumstances [to an unmarried British woman] outside British territory are not British subjects. The first question one asks in relation to British citizenship is, "Where was this person born?" That is the guiding factor in the great majority of cases, and children born abroad are not, in the ordinary way, British subjects by birth. They are so if they are born of British parents and if they are the first generation born overseas, but an illegitimate child, in the eyes of the law, has no father, and therefore, in the eyes of the law, as laid down in the Statute, such a child born abroad cannot be a British subject by birth."

Yet, the Canadian Citizenship Act states that a child born abroad before 1947 to a Canadian-born mother out of wedlock IS a Canadian citizen. (Qualified by the requirement that the mother and child have not become aliens.  This site... http://www.theshipslist.com/Forms/CanCitBirth.htm ...explains this as meaning that the child has not become naturalized, as opposed to being born into a second citizenship.)  

What we seem to have here, then, is an anomaly in the law: an instance of a non-British subject becoming a Canadian citizen in 1947.  This anomaly is not accounted for in the CIC interactive questionnaire.

 

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Permalink Reply by Frank Compton on February 25, 2012 at 5:45pm

Thanks, Gerry, and oops...the 1944 debate in the British Parliament was TWO years before the passage of the Citizenship Act, not three.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Harnish on February 25, 2012 at 8:30pm

       Thank you for giving my situation your time and thoughts I appreciate it.  So, I am not sure I follow 100% but does this mean my father is considered a natural born Canadian citizen?

      "A person born before the commencement of this Act, is a natural born Canadian citizen...if he was born outside of Canada...and his father, or in the case of a person born out of wedlock, his mother...was born in Canada..."

       And would that make me in fact first generation born abroad?  

       If this was to be the case would the CIC even know this information and approve my Proof Of Citizenship?   The question is, are the individuals looking at these apps highly knowledgable about immigration law?  And would they even care?   I called the CIC in Chicago and was told to call Detroit CIC, which I did and was rushed off the phone with the simple answer that No you arent Canadian due to the new law passed.  Assuming they were talking of Bill c-37 of which I was unaware of at the time.  Investigation of bill c-37 led me to believe that bill c-37 does not help me. Review of existing law prior to c-37 gave me hope, although my findings were that in possibly 2004 my ability to retain citizenship ended.

       Right now I am waiting for a certified copy of my Grandmother's birth certificate coming from Nova Scotia before I send out my application for a citizenship certificate. 

 

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Permalink Reply by Dave Harnish on February 25, 2012 at 9:48pm

 This is from Wikipedia;       

 

The one exception is section 8 of the Citizenship Act which applies to Canadians born outside Canada to a Canadian parent who also acquired Canadian citizenship by birth outside to a Canadian parent. Such persons lose Canadian citizenship at age 28 unless they have established specific ties to Canada and applied to retain Canadian citizenship.

Children born outside Canada to naturalized Canadian citizens are not subject to the section 8 provisions. Nor is anyone born before 15 February 1977.^[5]

Any person born outside Canada after 15 February 1977, who has a Canadian parent at the time of birth, is automatically a Canadian citizen by descent. Any such person whose Canadian parent or parents were also not born in Canada and obtained their citizenship at birth by descent (i.e. second generation born abroad) must have successfully applied to maintain their Canadian citizenship before their 28th birthday, that is, if their 28th birthday took place before 17 April 2009. People falling into that category who did not take steps to maintain their citizenship lost their citizenship on that birthday. With Bill C-37[4] coming into effect on 17 April 2009, there is no longer a requirement nor any allowance to apply to maintain citizenship.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Harnish on February 25, 2012 at 9:49pm

Am I looking more Canadian yet?

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Permalink Reply by Frank Compton on February 25, 2012 at 10:59pm

Sorry, Dave, if what I wrote gave you hope. 

What I was looking into was whether your father did or did not become a Canadian citizen in 1947.  Due to the conflicts in law that I mentioned, it still isn't clear to me one way or the other.  If you were to go to the interactive questionnaire (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules/index.asp) and complete it as if you were your father, it would say that he is likely not a Canadian citizen.   (And...if your grandmother became an American citizen before 1947, then it's certain he is not.)

Whether your father is or is not a Canadian citizen, unfortunately, still does not make you a Canadian citizen.  The issue for you is not a failure to file to retain your citizenship before your 28th birthday.  That issue pertains to people born to Canadians after 15 February 1977, not to you.  What you had to have done was register your birth before that possibility expired in 2004.  Now, C-37 bars you from citizenship as the second generation born abroad.   

 

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Permalink Reply by Dave Harnish on February 25, 2012 at 11:06pm

My fathers mother never became an American citizen. If that helps clarify anything.  My fathers sister who is about ten years younger did become a Canadian citizen simply by applying for it. She did that thirty years ago though.  She was born after 1947 so different laws apply to her I presume.

 

Really I am trying to determine my likelyhood of being approved.  Sometimes I find myself twisting things I read to make me Canadian because I want Dual Citizenship so bad.

 

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